Prejudice against Weckl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by PocketPlayer:
"hmm....Vinnie is like the drum companies that rise and fall. He's flavor of the month as Dave WAS."

I guess it's late 'cus I may have missed somethin here. Vinnie is the flavor of the month??? YIKES. Now who sounds like a kid. Again, I'm SURE I missed the context of that statement...Ah Choo..ZAPPA.

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Perhaps you might like to elaborate on the "Now who sounds like a kid" comment pocket?

I'll explain my VIEW: Drum companies like players come into FASHION and are heralded until something else new, bright and shiny comes along. Suddenly this is the THING/PERSON to be hip too or HAVE ...at THAT time.
(where as the FOLLOWERS were there at the beginning, saw the greatness in it... as it was/is).

Dave came in, blew everyone away and then got jumped on. I didn't see people saying he lacked this or that when he exploded. It seemed people couldn't get enough of him at THAT time.

Has vinnies ABILITY decreased since he played with zappa? Was he playing stuff that wasn't as fancy as dave was or OUT there? From a technical point i dont think so.

Vinnie is heralded as the NEW guy, yet he's always been around. I wonder when the vinnie bashing brigade will come out don't you? Like drum companies it goes around in cycles.

Pride does come before a fall. a Luther van dross quote no doubt?

I don't know what I expected in the way of response when I opened the topic but a round of applause for everybody please. All of your well-written fully-formed ideas dart around like pilot fish in unexpected directions. I'm sure everyone of you would scare the hell out of me on the drums.

IMO Dave swings his ass off and Vinnie can uproot buildings. Like a lot of people the first time I saw Vinnie (and Dave) was on the Buddy Rich Memorial video (I really believe it was Vinnie's night but Dave came in and went out with guns blazin'.) Vinnie initially appeared on a national level with Zappa in '78. Dave showed up around '82 or so. Neither one of them are new. Mine wasn't really a question about ability but about prejudice whether it's directed at height, weight or color. It's fun to debate Bozzio's better than Donati or Ringo's better than Charlie Watts, that makes for some great conversation. But prejudice sucks, unless it's prejudice against child molestors or dirtbags like Osama bin Laden. I bet that chump can't even play a decent triplet.

Tony Williams blasted Weckl in a MD interview once. Although he didn't name Dave by name it was very obvious who he was jabbing with a sharp stick. To paraphrase Tony: "I'm in NYC and this cat introduces himself and says he's the New Guy and I told him blah blah blah." If Dave's always comin' on like I'm-the-man or a garden variety asshole I could understand the slant against him. Sometimes I guess it's better not to meet your heroes. Cobham cooked his own goose with me when I saw him smarting off to young drummers at a clinic 20 years ago; I've never bought another thing he recorded and I had all of his albums up to that point. Neil Peart remarked once, "There's plenty of jerks out there with talent."

If I could be magically transformed into the drummer Vinnie is or the drummer Dave is I'd be hmmming and hawing so much I'm sure there'd be a celestial voice (with Richard Dawson accent) booming across the sky: "Time's up!" and I'd still just be me. Which would be okay cause I'm okay with me. Would I rather be a better drummer? No brainer, yes. Would I like to be a little taller? It doesn't really matter but I'm glad to be Five Eight and not Five Four. [img]wink.gif[/img]

"Vinnie is heralded as the NEW guy, yet he's always been around. I wonder when the vinnie bashing brigade will come out don't you? Like drum companies it goes around in cycles."

I don't know what to say here Me2. If you think Vinnie is the "HOT" ticket, you haven't been around for too long.
As a drummer, Vinnie was THE hot ticket back in '79 and still is. It's as simple as this...at NAMM, when Vinnie walks into the drum area, there is a hushed silence, an awe...I've seen well known drummers surround him like whores around Gene Simmons.
As for Vinnie playing too loud...insane. All an engineer has to do is flip a knob to turn him down in the final mix.
There isn't a drummer alive who can cover so convincingly the wide spectrum of drumming that Colaiuta can...ZERO, and I mean on record.
Sure, someone might play a reggae tune or a little jazz bebop, but Vinnie will do a recording for a particular artist for that style.
The guy's a freak, a monster, a living legend. Why that bothers some is beyond me. I go back to pride. Accept the fact that you and I will NEVER be able to play like Vinnie can with one stick. That's fact! Deal with it and move on.

Someone (Ah Choo..randy) needs to compile a brief discography of Vinnie just to get this out. I just got the Wang Chung and Nik Kershaw recordings. Give me a break. Vinnie KILLS on these. Then he goes off and does a Chick Live in Tokyo at the Blue Note. Give me a break. Vinnie Kills. Then goes off and does the Sting thing. Give me a break. Vinnie Kills. From Faith Hill and SheDaisey to Brian Bromberg and Chick Corea...YIKES! Is the guy perfect...NO. But if God gave someone a fusion of burning desire, raw talent, and genius...his name would be Vincent.

I might do that Pocket, I just finished and turned in the Biography of Vinnie for the upcoming drum book by Marc Atkinson.
The book now has a street date of August 1st, soon to have promotion at summer NAMM from what I have heard. The book will be published by Warner Bros.
While I was writing the biography it donned on me a proper discography would be in order so I kind of started something for the book but did not turn it in for I was not really asked to do it. So it's sitting here started, I will try and finish it up.

LOL.

. . . like whores around Gene Simmons. That's a simile worthy of Raymond Chandler.

Pocket, I haven't laughed that hard since the last time jonthibault cracked wise. You go, boy.

If there is any prejudice against Weckl, it may have been brought on by himself. This is not a "Vinnie is god" post on my part, but here is the real difference between these guys. I have seen these guys perform in an equal amount of gigs in the LA area. Every time I have seen Vinnie, he takes time to talk with you and is very cordial. He stays out in front, takes pictures, signs things, etc. Dave on the other hand goes straight to the back, greets no one (Unless you happen to be another "drum guru.} Every time, this was his consistent behavior. Once or twice, I could say, he was having a bad night. But everytime? Weckl unfortunately, seems to have very little regard for the people that have come to see him.
I love Weckl's playing as much as anyone. I own most of his albums and have studied him extensively. But this I believe, is the essence of what causes him trouble in the drum community at large, as far as the very impressionable early 20 somethings go.

Hey I just wish I was half as good as the guys that are being debated/talked about. Vinnie is blah,blah,... and Dave is blah,blah,... and Virgil well he is blah, blah,... and oh well Dennis is blah,... heck give me some of what they got, I will take it. Man can we sometimes pick at guys, "I mean I watched "so and so" and he just didn't swing like "so and so" or "blah, blah" just did not rock like you know who. These guys are all REALLY GOOD at what they do and if we were only that good! Now I am not saying it is not good to debate at times it really is I enjoy it at times, but sometimes we just pick all of these guys to death.

I have seen most of these guys a few times and they are all HUMAN, I have walked away from watching Vinnie, NOT! being blown away or seen Dennis and not been horribly impressed or watched Virgil and wished he would tone it down abit, or seen Dave and wished I had been more moved, it is the reality that they are just guys who are GREAT players but are not perfect and many times they are REALLY ON and BRILLIANT and at times they are a little off. It is O.K. because they have EARNED what they have gotten, the respect and praise.

Come on how many of us have seen one of these guys and they were "JUST ON" and they FLOORED! us and we walk away thinking they are machines and never can be off and will ALWAYS play at what we think is 100% or close to it and then we see them again and it was not QUITE what it was before and we go hey WHAT'S UP! More often than not it was just our messed up perceptions and we need to adjust our "realities" abit. We put these guys up out of reach so to speak at times and hey they are like us they are screw up's at times, who eat and drink and dump! just like we do. Again give me what THEY GOT! I will take alot of that.

Regards Kirk

Welcome to HOD, Frank. Very impressive post, especially the part about the 'essence' of the Weckster. That's really gettin' to the heart of the matter.

Since Clapton is no longer God, I think Vince is doing a great job.

5/8 are you implying that vincent sits on the righthand of Dave! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Halleluyah Brother we have a winner!
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Apologies pocket as this was posted while you must have been typing.
I'm not a 21yr old kid(as much as i'd like to be) and i'm aware and have been, of vincent since the early 80's.( when i first heard him or...was turned onto him. As we ALL are by others recommendation(s).

What i'm trying to explain is, Vinnie no matter how long he has been playing, is at that point where he's at his Highest Profile.
Yes drummers have been aware of him but, he's now reaping the rewards that weckl was getting back in the 80's when vinnie should have too.

Thats the point i'm saying about the IN thing. whether that be a Drum company or a drummer, its all cyclical. Someone's or company is in and someones out.

In this case too me, Vincent cant get any hotter at the moment, He's boiling at the suns core.

At some point the bashers will turn on vinnie as they have dave and there will be a new kid in town even though vincent will still be THE CHAMP!
(5/8 break out the Rocky theme please!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]</font>

Hey Me2, I was just quoting what you wrote in your posts. That is not judging, but quoting...right. You said it! I never stated you called Vinnie the "hot ticket," but referenced it that way because you are saying he is NOW, THE guy.

We all know Vinnie has always been around. We all know he is great, BUT...the point of contention is that he is NOW being used by everyone. I think that is what you're saying.

Here's my point...I do agree that Vinnie is being used A LOT, BUT...Vinnie has been playing with everyone since the 80's. His playing with Sting took him away from the studio. That's why I said it sounds like you haven't been around for too long. I don't mean disrespect, but if you knew his history, you would know he was an in demand LA Rountable studio cat until the major committment of the Sting gig.
It was Vinnie, Porcaro, Mason, Keltner, Fongheiser, Schaeffer, and Baird...those were the top guys getting the calls in '90.

Sting took Vinnie away and on the road in the early '90's, and we all know that a studio guy is paranoid to stray too far from the phone. It took Sting or Peter Gabriel to get him away from the studios. If Randy makes available his sessions in the 80's we will all be amazed I'm sure of it.

When he left Sting in around '97-'98, he got back into the studios and of course everyone wants him, who wouldn't if he was available. So again, he is in demand bigtime NOW, BUT...he was also a heavy studio cat before Sting as well. The Sting gig and that exposure sure didn't hurt his profile any...it added to it.

So has Vinnie's [presence ESCALATED] at [full trajectory right now]...? I say NO. It has been there. Without the commitment of Sting, the tours, and road, etc., he has just got back into the studio groove and that has grown, but not "as the flavor of the month" more like the flavor of the past two decades.

This isn't a Dave vs Vinnie thread...we're all tired of those, but I do find that those who have a deep preference towards a particular musician (and passions rise here) and when one's mind is made up, reason is futile.
My reference to, "pride come before the fall" had this in mind;
When many are so ardent in defending their favorite drummer or musician--for whatever reason--I find that they are not defending reason, or drummer X, or an abstract system; often they are defending their own sense of security and self-respect.
I am NOT saying this is the case here, but it is an easy thing to slide into. That's why so many of the "younger" drum forums are noted for serious flaming...outside of simply having some fun.
In short, it's part of our fallen side to want to identify with greatness in a way that compromises who WE are, and when another great comes along, our limitedness feels there is only room for one tattoo on Gene Simmons butt cheek--well, he's got two cheeks!

Nuff said here. That's my take.
[img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 02:34 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>